..better yet, don't waste your time. If you don't have a power meter, your functional threshold is probably a mystery to you anyway, so doing FT intervals as I've done here will be impossible.. (let me add that it is possible to own a power meter, not know what to do with it, never establish your FT value and hence never do workouts designed to boost it (FT) and then end up giving your power meter away or selling it because you judge it to be a useless toy..) Furthermore, if you are using a heart rate monitor for such a work out, then you're going to be way off the mark.. The three intervals pictured are all pegged at 241 watts average (5 min, 10 min and 10 min), but lo and behold- the heart rates for the three intervals average at 152, 164 and 170 respectively. If I "believed" my FT was 160 beats per minute.. interval No 1 would have been higher than my FT watts. Interval No 2 would have been lower and interval No 3 would have been lower still. So.. using a HRM I would have ended up blowing my wad on the first interval because it would have been anaerobic, and then I would have done a couple of zone 3 tempo intervals when I'm trying to be on the edge of zones 4/5... Useless. The chart speaks for itself though. Look at the slow reaction of the heart rate. It takes a full 30 seconds for the HR to reach a level which is compatible with the output. I realize that not everyone can afford to pay a coach.. but make no mistake: I sacrificed something else in order to free up the money for coaching. If there's a will, there's a way.
22 comments:
ya sound like an evangelical bible thumper under attack by scientists loaded with indisputable facts.
panic mode.
plenty of studies show that the type/intensity/specificity of the interval has no bearing on how much faster you get.
doing them, gets you faster.
put one of those meters on say a solobreak type guy and i'd wager his intervals are probably pretty damn close in wattage.
your FT is your FT if you know it or not.
that said - stop preaching for about two years...
if you still think the device you are a slave to is the bees knees, then... maybe then we can start listening to you again ;)
it is still a toy
lets see you tape up the power display and do an interval... ;)
Slave? More like proponent. Not thumping bibles.. Just sharing my position on said matters. We can agree to disagree. No worries.
Complete dismissal of the Powertap as a toy is quite over the top though.
it is funny watching folks all rattle to the defense of a device when it is called a toy ;)
and since when have you known me to be subtle, or not over the top?
gotta keep that pot stirred up ya know!
Dude you were on the trainer. All you need is a $20 cyclometer to tell how fast the back wheel is turning.
The pm must work though. At the Bob Beal TT you beat a 46 year old woman by over 9 seconds!:
Murat Altinbasak Union Velo 06:56.85
Master Women 45+
Cheryl Wolf Bethel Cycle 07:05.73
-NC
For that matter Murat, if you look at this, 5 minutes into your second interval your HR is identical to what it was at 5 minutes into your first interval. The higher average is due to normal cardiac drift upwards over the last 5 minutes of the interval. Even on your 3rd interval your HR is only 3-4 bpm higher at the 5 minutes point, and since your power is all over the place for that one, this is to be expected anyway.
However, Gewilli did not even mention heart rate as an indicator, you did. I'm old and my eyesight is no good, so I can't read the numbers anyway. I just have to wing it.
Hi Solo
not sure if you intended to insult murat or Cheryl Wolf.
:)
"not sure if you intended to insult murat or Cheryl Wolf."
double OUCH
Match Point: Solobreak
Be nice! Cheryl put in a great ride. Murat had a bad day...
Oh, now I get it...
:o)
wife beater = guy who manages to beat someones wife in a TT
I will defend the PM!!
I love training with the PM, thus far!
Why:
It provides a very accurate sign of improvement or non-improvement, free of inaccuracies created by environmental/course conditions.
It provides a tremendous motivation for me while doing intervals, particularly LT work. Having a very real numerical goal is a real motivator, for me, to push just a bit harder.
It has helped me to improve/understand my own Perceived Effort scale.
It gives me really useful data concerning total energy expenditure of rides, so that I can adjust my training volume accurately. (yes, my HRM gives calories, but certain intervals/efforts raise the HR a lot, but dont use all that much power, or vice versa).
HR, in my case, is NOT accurate for any of my intervals, particularly for those under 10 minutes in length.
Ok, so the PT is not for everyone, but it may be for those who are more than a bit obsessed with cycle racing (Murat and I, for example)and are looking for the best results possible with the least amount of "junk miles" as possible. I watched my team mate ride 20 hours a week last season, only to race poorly... that's frustrating on so many levels. Yes, a PM might not help him, but it gives me a sense that I'm avoiding wasted time in my drive towards performance (and the fun that comes with feeling like you own every race you enter).
In october, I did a 30 minute FTP test on the trainer.
My results:
210 lbs
243 watts average
155 BPM (for the latter 20min of the test).
Now, on Jan. 29, i did 2 sets of 30 minutes, just below FTP (not an all out test, mind you) and here are the numbers for the second 30 minute interval:
191 LBS
297 watts average
156 BPM
So, does this seem like useful information about how my training has been going?
For me it is quite useful and extremely motivating and assuring. Maybe my need to know I'm improving is a character flaw, but it doesnt keep me up at night :-)
Shit like that makes me pretty psyched for the upcoming season and helps to fuel my passion for riding my bike.
And YES, I am a nerd.
And, YES I like my powermeter.
Cheers All!!
keep the pedals turning, Murat. I'm in your corner all the way!!
-Leo
What's a power meter, or better yet, a heart-rate monitor? All I need is a good excuse to get out of work early and a good alibi to give to my wife...and !POOF! I get faster.
"The pm must work though. At the Bob Beal TT you beat a 46 year old woman by over 9 seconds!:"
Yes you're correct, but what you fail to mention is that in 2006, she beat me by two seconds..
Seriously though, I took 15 seconds off my 2006 time, on a bad day filled with cramping (as you point out) and moved from 21st to 14th in the ITT results. (2007 times were generally worse than 2006 times, btw)
I will bet you a 40 ouncer that I will move up another 15 seconds or another 7 places in 2008.
"Hi Solo
not sure if you intended to insult murat or Cheryl Wolf.
:)"
Sigh.. Is it "Disrespect Murat Month" or something?
Anonymous.. that was Nega Coach talking, not Solo.. We expect that kind of treatment from Nega Coach, so it's not an insult.. This is, you spineless sack of door knobs.
What was YOUR effing time at Bob Beal, big guy?
Leo,
Thank you very much. Those are some strong numbers btw.. I want to think that you're PT is NOT recording zeros (it should be) but since I've ridden with you I'm pretty sure you're on target.
How are those ILTs coming on the trainer? Get them up to five minutes duration per leg?
Cycling is like church. Many attend, but few understand. -Jim Burlant
I guess the same could be said about power meters. (I can't aford one, so I am jealous. I have a son who is a hockey goalie who takes all my income))
Hi Murat,
anonymous here, didn't mean to offend, I'm old enough now to realize that getting my ass kicked by a woman no longer bothers me, I once did a training ride with Nicole freidman, before I knew who her; (Olympian). after that being beat by an excellent female athlete doesn't bother me. so being "beat by a woman" is not really offensive in 2008!
oh yes and your tt time beat mine at BB weekend!
Nicole came to Wednesday night Wompatuck (3/4) once about 10 years ago. We didn't know her but she got in the break with 4 of us and we let her sit out turns. At the end I led it out to set up my team mate and she blew him off in the sprint and took the win...
I had a holy crap moment riding home friday night...
"Dude you were on the trainer. All you need is a $20 cyclometer to tell how fast the back wheel is turning."
YOU WERE ON THE TRAINER for that workout?
I figured the variation was due to real road conditions, not something else... that's more of a variation in power than i've generally seen on my TT efforts from this summer and the Bikeworks TTs...
Hey, at least you are doing intervals! And no denying the fact that as long as you THINK it is doing you some good the placebo effect will definitely be worthwhile.
It just hit me that it wasn't more than a placebo benefit.
;-)
And we ain't hating Murat... no, it is tough love saved for those we call friends
Yes, indoors on the wind trainer. I have the device set to the maximum number of recordings per minute, so it's not smoothed out. Also, I use the "Avg watts" display when I'm doing these intervals so if I happen to drift off target I can easily juice it or ease up to get back in range. Obviously, the third interval is going to be a bit choppy at that intensity. You get tired.. you're not a machine with a dial.. That's what we use the PT for..
What's this placebo stuff Gewilli? I've been riding indoors/out since the 2nd week of November, not less than 8 hours a week, usually more than 10, for the past 10 weeks. Is that the placebo you refer to?
SHEESH!
I think those of you with such an anti-PT chip on your shoulder have something I'll call "training envy". I've limited my junk miles to almost NONE for the past 10 weeks.. Get over it!
Love you too Ge.
:)
junk miles?
JUNK miles?
there ain't no such thing as junk miles unless you are an uptight roadie.
Miles is miles.
Why do an average on the Trainer? Ain't like you got headwind or other stuff to worry about.
Placebo effect, ah never mind ;) just ride your damn bike.
and 8-10 hours a week? When is your off season?
Or should we start taking bets on when you burn out from over training.
Yes junk miles:
"Riding one's bicycle with the false hope that aerobic, anaerobic, VO2 or neuromuscular benefit is being derived, when the frequency, intensity and durations of said rides are insufficient for such benefit"
MY off-season was September 17 thru November 15. Remember my crash at Bob Beal?
You're making this sound much more complicated than it needs to be. If you want to eliminate junk miles, ride fast(er). Intervals w/o a power meter are certainly possible - anyone who trains regularly and attentively knows how hard they can go for a given time period. Start with that, try to go a little harder - if that's too hard, back it off a little, etc... It's not that hard to figure out, especially if you do this regularly.
And if anyone has a chip on his shoulder, I suggest it might be the guy who, in the first line of his post, told me my intervals were a waste of time without a power meter.
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